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TATAPOCALYPSE NOW: Deathclock at five minutes to midnight
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Nick Besonderes
Modern Gentleman


Joined: 09 Nov 2018
Posts: 249
Location: Here

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

5ivegearsinreverse wrote:
Nick Besonderes wrote:
And there was me thinking it might be the FIAT multi-air bits that could prove troublesome.

Many manufacturers have under-specced the cam drive (B** MINI anyone?) and neoprene belts would be easier to change regularly.

All this flimsy shite obviously saves more CO^2s in squirt than the energy requirements of manufacturing a new engine in somebody's universe.

But we are where we are; badge-engineered BMWs everywhere - even Morgan. Might as well buy a B** then.


If not B**, then VAG. Even unto Fords FFS.

The Tatuar Multi-air is by way of Schaeffler, which suggests a packaged design and supply deal. Fiat's deal to license the multi-air IP to Schaeffler sounds worryingly like a repeat of their precipitate sale of their Common Rail development patents to Bosch. I hope they've been cannier this time.

I've yet to try a throttle-less petrol engine I like - they respond very oddly and fail to deliver the efficiency promised on paper in real life.

Weedy chains in the wrong places apart, the Ingenium is probably close the mainstream for current 500cc cylinder module engines. It weighs around 138kg, and has cylinder centres of 93mm - wider than VAG's 88mm and B**'s 91mm.

I'd reckon Bob's new Dynamic Force M20A-FKS is a lot lighter. 80.5 x 97.6 proportions are considered optimum for a 2 litre, albeit a NA petrol one designed for ultimate efficiency rather than extreme power.

The Ingenium's proportions are 83.0 x 92.4. If there was room for another 10.6mm of stroke, the new straight six could be exactly the same size as the 3.4 litre XK, a rather pleasing thought.


Ingenium 4 did seem a bit like an old Honda unit, so was promising.

I suspect the I6 version will be way better, in the way that Cofton Hackett has a habit of repeating itself.
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5ivegearsinreverse
ROBERT JEKYLL & GORDON HYDE


Joined: 07 Nov 2018
Posts: 767
Location: A Town Called Bastard

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another couple of cylinders usually improves an engine. Triumph 20S and Blue Streak for example. The best E6 was the 'strine 2.6, usefully re-worked for rwd-only use.

The downside is that a four reverse engineered from a six is usually a bit bobbins - lots of Seppo examples. The first exception to come to mindf is the Fiat 1300/1500 polyspheric head four - two thirds of the 2300S engine.
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Seamaster
PEDDLING OPTIMISM


Joined: 11 Nov 2018
Posts: 2073
Location: Scottish Riviera

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THREAD LOCKED.
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Nick Besonderes
Modern Gentleman


Joined: 09 Nov 2018
Posts: 249
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The FIAT was a pretty 'square' engine so probably had the bore spacing to permit a decent main bearing/big end area for a lumpy old four crankshaft. Having talented lead engineers always helps, too.

It's usually where V8s derived from fours fall over too; weak bottom ends. This is especially troo for AEC, Henschel & SAVIEM V8s.
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DougN
QUADRASPAZ


Joined: 05 Dec 2018
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

marinast wrote:
Family I think. I bought the car from Wilmoths in Southampton which is a larger franchise.


I used to get shitfaced with James Wilmoth, erstwhile owner of said dealer group, on a regular basis in one of his pubs.

I hope this information is of use.
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marinast
1.2 C4 PICASSO


Joined: 07 Nov 2018
Posts: 891

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dealership in Southampton is right opposite the football ground.
Either thatís ingenious as he has thousands of prospective customers walk past every other weekend to browse the forecourt or foolhardy as they also have plenty of shiny things to target in a fight.
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marinast
1.2 C4 PICASSO


Joined: 07 Nov 2018
Posts: 891

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Long dead XJ13 design reborn as something pretty awesome.

Warning: This is arousing.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/legendary-jaguar-xj13-reborn-ecurie-lm69
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5ivegearsinreverse
ROBERT JEKYLL & GORDON HYDE


Joined: 07 Nov 2018
Posts: 767
Location: A Town Called Bastard

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nick Besonderes wrote:
The FIAT was a pretty 'square' engine so probably had the bore spacing to permit a decent main bearing/big end area for a lumpy old four crankshaft. Having talented lead engineers always helps, too.

It's usually where V8s derived from fours fall over too; weak bottom ends. This is especially troo for AEC, Henschel & SAVIEM V8s.


Not forgetting the Stag engine. although it did sound brilliant.
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Lord Sward
SWARDUS ET PKLESS


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 1199

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about V6s derived from 4s?
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5ivegearsinreverse
ROBERT JEKYLL & GORDON HYDE


Joined: 07 Nov 2018
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Location: A Town Called Bastard

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Sward wrote:
What about V6s derived from 4s?


Are there many?

KV6 certainly, but mostly it worked the other way - PRV V6 and 829 four, GM X-engine and 122 four.

There's the story that the Fiat 130 V6 was derived from the 128 four, but that's just arrant nonsense.
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chucky
ES YOUR U WANT A POPULARITY CAR NTEST


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 328

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

marinast wrote:
Long dead XJ13 design reborn as something pretty awesome.

Warning: This is arousing.


Strong contender for Worst Article 2019.
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MarkM
SPLUTTERING HUTCUNT


Joined: 07 Nov 2018
Posts: 1151

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I blame the 1.2 C4 Picasso.
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Nick Besonderes
Modern Gentleman


Joined: 09 Nov 2018
Posts: 249
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

5ivegearsinreverse wrote:
Lord Sward wrote:
What about V6s derived from 4s?


Are there many?

KV6 certainly, but mostly it worked the other way - PRV V6 and 829 four, GM X-engine and 122 four.

There's the story that the Fiat 130 V6 was derived from the 128 four, but that's just arrant nonsense.


PRV6 was a cut-down PRV8 and the SFM 829 4 does I believe have smaller bore spacings (and a different bore/stroke ratio) so they're only loosely-related.

The VAGes did initially derive V6s and V8s from EA827, but I have insufficient PK to know how related they really are. Given the undersquareness, they must've been quite bulky.

The Vauxhall slant-four was very oversquare and presumably that would have left bearing space for the V8 Ventora engine(!) and the Diseasel version for Bedford trucks. All came to naught in the end.
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Seamaster
PEDDLING OPTIMISM


Joined: 11 Nov 2018
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Location: Scottish Riviera

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkM wrote:
I blame the 1.2 C4 Picasso.


1.2 C4 Picasso, LOL.
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marinast
1.2 C4 PICASSO


Joined: 07 Nov 2018
Posts: 891

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iím not surprised Iím not feeling much love for my new Grand Spacetourer but one good thing we must all agree on.

One less diesel on our roads. Laughing
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MarkM
SPLUTTERING HUTCUNT


Joined: 07 Nov 2018
Posts: 1151

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why? Has it been scrapped?
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marinast
1.2 C4 PICASSO


Joined: 07 Nov 2018
Posts: 891

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stolen, written off, crushed.
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Spastic
DRIBBLING FUCKING IMBECILE


Joined: 09 Nov 2018
Posts: 530
Location: In a home

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marinast wrote:
Iím not surprised Iím not feeling much love for my new Grand Spacetourer but one good thing we must all agree on.

One less diesel on our roads. Laughing


Could be worse for you; you could have purchased an LEAF.
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MarkM
SPLUTTERING HUTCUNT


Joined: 07 Nov 2018
Posts: 1151

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You not loving the future*?
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Seamaster
PEDDLING OPTIMISM


Joined: 11 Nov 2018
Posts: 2073
Location: Scottish Riviera

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marinast wrote:
Stolen, written off, crushed.


Iíd have said best thing for it, to be honest, but A FUCKING 1.2 C4 PICASSO?


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marinast
1.2 C4 PICASSO


Joined: 07 Nov 2018
Posts: 891

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MPV choice is pretty limited these days.
If only Proton or Tata sold one here.
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Sheefag
MACDROITWICH SPECIAL FORCES


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 342

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't believe you chose that french thing over a Ssangyong Turismo.
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Nick Besonderes
Modern Gentleman


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's no Lexus LM
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Sandie
FLOPPY-TROUSERED BUCKFAST-SWILLING CUNT


Joined: 09 Nov 2018
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Location: The EPC

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sheefag wrote:
I can't believe you chose that french thing over a Ssangyong Turismo.


So good they were BANNED from banger racing.
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marinast
1.2 C4 PICASSO


Joined: 07 Nov 2018
Posts: 891

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derv only, no good.
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Ottertronic
WORSE THAN HITLER


Joined: 09 Nov 2018
Posts: 928

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sandie wrote:
So good they were BANNED from banger racing.


Too great a risk of someone wandering onto the track believing their minicab had arrived? Too much audience vomiting? Too many people on board at once?
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Sandie
FLOPPY-TROUSERED BUCKFAST-SWILLING CUNT


Joined: 09 Nov 2018
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Location: The EPC

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TOO TOUGH TO RACE.
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Derek
SAUCEBOX


Joined: 10 Nov 2018
Posts: 366
Location: Upside down

PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

THE RODIUS TO VICTORY.
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5ivegearsinreverse
ROBERT JEKYLL & GORDON HYDE


Joined: 07 Nov 2018
Posts: 767
Location: A Town Called Bastard

PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More BAD NEWS FROM BANGALORE - only bright spots are the UK and China:

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/jaguar-land-rover-loss-widens-lower-sales-brexit-challenges

ANE wrote:
Tata Motors lost 36.98 billion rupees ($535.93 million) in the quarter ended June 30, compared to a loss of 19.02 billion rupees a year ago. Revenue fell 7.7 percent to 608.30 billion rupees.

Tatuar had a pretax loss of 395 million pounds ($493 million) before exceptional items during the quarter, compared with a 264-million pound loss in the year earlier period, Tata Motors said in a statement on Thursday. Quarterly revenues that declined 2.8 percent to 5.1 billion pounds.

Global retail sales of Land Rover and Jaguar vehicles fell 11.6 percent to 128,615 for the quarter. However, Tatuar had record sales in its UK home market, up 2.6 percent year-on-year, while China sales rose in June compared with the prior month.

The results mainly reflect lower revenue resulting from the weaker market conditions, Tata Motors said. Additional plant shutdown time resulting from Brexit contingency planning and delays in WLTP certification also contributed to the lower sales and profits, it said.
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Seamaster
PEDDLING OPTIMISM


Joined: 11 Nov 2018
Posts: 2073
Location: Scottish Riviera

PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iím reminded of the news story years ago about chicken tikka masala replacing fish and chips as our national dish.
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Sheefag
MACDROITWICH SPECIAL FORCES


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 342

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has in my house.
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