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2001.
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Lord Sward
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:00 pm    Post subject: 2001. Reply with quote

We haven't fantasied for a while.

What if Honda took Rover off B**'s hands in 2001, but additionally with the Triumph badge under licence?

Unlike Phoenix, but like Moulton, the change in ownership comes with the option of voluntary redundancies for those who want out. I add this because at the time, there were plenty within Longbridge who wanted out but wouldn't go as the money was very good, the work easy. They also thought Phoenix would at some point start to issue VRs..

Honda get all the benefits of what they had before but with a hefty dowery.

B** keep the R65 'box.

Honda massively reduce their presence on the Longbridge site, now owned by St Mowden remember.

The yet-to-be-released ZT & TF are remade for the USA marketed worldwide with the ZT badged as a Triumph.

45 is released with the facelift which had sat around for ages and given the boost of the Honda estate tooling.

Logo tooling is shipped over and rebadged Metro (again name licensed from B**)
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Barry
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The recession of 2007/2008 would have wiped them off the face of the earth along with Honda.
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Ottertronic
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 2001. Reply with quote

Lord Sward wrote:
The yet-to-be-released ZT & TF are remade for the USA marketed worldwide with the ZT badged as a Triumph.


The R40 structure was supposedly engineered with US homologation in mind but the TF wasn't and would surely have been fearsomely expensive to bring up to the required standard.
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Lord Sward
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: 2001. Reply with quote

Ottertronic wrote:
Lord Sward wrote:
The yet-to-be-released ZT & TF are remade for the USA marketed worldwide with the ZT badged as a Triumph.


The R40 structure was supposedly engineered with US homologation in mind but the TF wasn't and would surely have been fearsomely expensive to bring up to the required standard.


TRU. But wasn't the F originally going to be designed for the US, until B** called a halt to that bit of development? I'm figuring TF is so much like a kit car, but fundamentally safe, they could have made the necessary alterations using off the shelf Honda bits?
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Giles
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What would Honda want to keep from Longbridge?

Their Swindon site had/has plenty of room for expansion and is still new compared to how Longbridge was in 2001.

At best Honda would be purchasing a couple of dying brands, some tooling for a large car they don't want, a medium sized car that they already make and a small car based on components that they rejected nearly two decades previously.

They only thing Honda ever wanted or needed were the firms design and development engineers, but how many of these had already jumped ship by 2001?
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Lord Sward
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'd be surprised how many engineers didn't want to jump ship.

Honda would be increasing European volume in addition to the engineering and styling teams. They wouldn't be buying anything. B** would be giving it to them.

Then of course, there was the diesel programme underway (Gemini) to make a very cheap and equally as reliable alternative to M47.

Honda got into serious bother with their first 2.2 diesel. First they lost market share, then they got burned on warranty.
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Lord Sward
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm suggesting Honda take all engineering (plant, designs, engineers) in Longbridge, Powertrain, existing models and brand names Rover, MG, Triumph, Metro, Vitesse and Vanden Plas.

Run it on a shoe-string, and I mean a shoe-string. Its the only way the management and engineers would be effective.

Only staff remain who really want to remain, all others paid off.
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620bob
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I regrettably have to agree with Giles about 2008. We wound down and closed shop 2 which was just 10 years old making a modern product using lean manufacturing. Longbridge would surely have been for the bin given Swindon also shut an Assembly building due to over capacity.
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Lord Sward
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not suggesting anything but a gradual wind down of assembly there. It was vast, outdated and crucially, leased. But there was talent, some good products and a loyal following. Honda as we've seen haven't done anything memorable since and are effectively withdrawing from Europe.

Rover would have given volume and an outlet for alternative designs as well as diesel and chassis engineering know-how.
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marinast
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest without Mini or RR/LR, what can Honda work with?
Maybe Honda could give Longbridge the then current Acura TL and see what they could do to it to produce a large Triumph saloon to be sold in markets outside the USA? Phase out the HHR and look at reskinning the R3 into a cheap FWD sports car called the MG Midget.
Continue the MGF and produce the TF facelift with Honda engines and gearboxes. The Midget could be for the US market, the TF everywhere else?
Slim 75 production to just V6 models for the time being and look at face lifting it with a range of luxurious interiors and push for Honda engines asap.
Phase 75 out by 2004/5 for a new Triumph/Rover saloon range based on the revised Acura TL launches in 2004. KV6 phased out in favour of Honda units but new Rover G Series Diesel engines developed and used in new model.
New Triumph SUV developed based on the Acura MDX and launched in 2005/6.


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Lord Sward
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

620bob wrote:
I think I regrettably have to agree with Giles about 2008. We wound down and closed shop 2 which was just 10 years old making a modern product using lean manufacturing. Longbridge would surely have been for the bin given Swindon also shut an Assembly building due to over capacity.


Scrappage. Rover's customers would have flocked to scrappage. Hence my reasoning to bring across the recently obsolete Logo line to Roverise in 2001. Replace 25 and 45 with a recently absolete and Roverised 2001 Civic in 2006.

Longbridge makes old Hondas, facelifted to suit. Its design and engineers facilities are heavily invested in. Assembly reduced to the BINI 's never ever used assembly hall.
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Barry
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

620bob wrote:
I think I regrettably have to agree with Giles about 2008. We wound down and closed shop 2 which was just 10 years old making a modern product using lean manufacturing. Longbridge would surely have been for the bin given Swindon also shut an Assembly building due to over capacity.

GTF I mentioned 2008. RECALL YOUR COMMENT
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620bob
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a nice idea but I doubt a rag tag collection of Engineers and technicians from Longbridge would cut too much ice with the Japanese. I'm just not sure they had anything Honda would have thought they wanted.
Old mini sold well in Japan but that too was not on the table.
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620bob
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barry wrote:
620bob wrote:
I think I regrettably have to agree with Giles about 2008. We wound down and closed shop 2 which was just 10 years old making a modern product using lean manufacturing. Longbridge would surely have been for the bin given Swindon also shut an Assembly building due to over capacity.

GTF I mentioned 2008. RECALL YOUR COMMENT


I have now fitted a shim to my comment and acknowledge it was Barrance who mentioned the recession. I do however agree with your comments regarding over capacity. Consider me Got to Fucked.
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Ottertronic
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Sward wrote:
TRU. But wasn't the F originally going to be designed for the US, until B** called a halt to that bit of development? I'm figuring TF is so much like a kit car, but fundamentally safe, they could have made the necessary alterations using off the shelf Honda bits?


What the ruddy nora are you on about? It's not as simple as using off-the-shelf bits to meet US standards, we're talking about fundamental and very expensive body-in-white changes. The seatbelt mountings, for example. Euro rules require a short, sharp shock test, as you'd get in an accident. US rules demand the mount is subjected to a sustained load of several seconds. It's unrealistic and a bastard to engineer, but them's the rules.

Lord Sward wrote:
Then of course, there was the diesel programme underway (Gemini) to make a very cheap and equally as reliable alternative to M47.


The updated, common rail L-series was codenamed Galileo not Gemini.
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620bob
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a Maestro Streetwise would have saved them.
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Ottertronic
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

620bob wrote:
I think a Maestro Streetwise would have saved them.


Wasn't that basically the mk1 Freelander?
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Barry
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

620bob wrote:
I think a Maestro Streetwise would have saved them.

With a dash of Forester thrown in.
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5ivegearsinreverse
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barry wrote:
620bob wrote:
I think a Maestro Streetwise would have saved them.

With a dash of Forester thrown in.


Nice Yema reference there. You can't fault Chinese resource and ingenuity.
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Barry
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ottertronic wrote:
Lord Sward wrote:
TRU. But wasn't the F originally going to be designed for the US, until B** called a halt to that bit of development? I'm figuring TF is so much like a kit car, but fundamentally safe, they could have made the necessary alterations using off the shelf Honda bits?


What the ruddy nora are you on about? It's not as simple as using off-the-shelf bits to meet US standards, we're talking about fundamental and very expensive body-in-white changes. The seatbelt mountings, for example. Euro rules require a short, sharp shock test, as you'd get in an accident. US rules demand the mount is subjected to a sustained load of several seconds. It's unrealistic and a bastard to engineer, but them's the rules.

Lord Sward wrote:
Then of course, there was the diesel programme underway (Gemini) to make a very cheap and equally as reliable alternative to M47.


The updated, common rail L-series was codenamed Galileo not Gemini.

Did it the Chinese talk about tooling the MG TF up for sale in the USA.
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5ivegearsinreverse
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:20 am    Post subject: Re: 2001. Reply with quote

Lord Sward wrote:
We haven't fantasied for a while.

What if Honda took Rover off B**'s hands in 2001, but additionally with the Triumph badge under licence?

Unlike Phoenix, but like Moulton, the change in ownership comes with the option of voluntary redundancies for those who want out. I add this because at the time, there were plenty within Longbridge who wanted out but wouldn't go as the money was very good, the work easy. They also thought Phoenix would at some point start to issue VRs..

Honda get all the benefits of what they had before but with a hefty dowery.

B** keep the R65 'box.

Honda massively reduce their presence on the Longbridge site, now owned by St Mowden remember.

The yet-to-be-released ZT & TF are remade for the USA marketed worldwide with the ZT badged as a Triumph.

45 is released with the facelift which had sat around for ages and given the boost of the Honda estate tooling.

Logo tooling is shipped over and rebadged Metro (again name licensed from B**)


I fear we may have outgrown such stuff, which was once such a pleasurable waste of mental effort on ARF.

Occasionally when I have particularly little to do, I muse upon the fortunes of Fiat, Alfa Romeo and Lancia, had the proprietor of my local fish and chip shop taken charge, instead of Sergio Marchionne.
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Barry
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't see a battered white hen being hugely popular.
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5ivegearsinreverse
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barry wrote:
I can't see a battered white hen being hugely popular.


Don't you believe it.

And isn't the current Tipo the automotive equivalent of a a late night doner kebab, concocted from less than fresh ingredients?
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Giles
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Sward wrote:
I'm not suggesting anything but a gradual wind down of assembly there. It was vast, outdated and crucially, leased. But there was talent, some good products and a loyal following. Honda as we've seen haven't done anything memorable since and are effectively withdrawing from Europe.

Rover would have given volume and an outlet for alternative designs as well as diesel and chassis engineering know-how.


Rover would be doing what the Thai and Chinese are doing now? Sounds to me like the outcome would have been the same as reality, maybe just another 4-5 years down the line.

Maybe an alternative would be for Honda to create a three or four tier branding : Honda for the mass masses, Acura for the executive, MG for sports cars and Rover for boutique, hand finished leather and wood luxo barges. - It works* for VAG.

As an aside, who actually did the St. Modwen lease back deal? I thought it was Phoenix, or did it happen under British Aerospace or B**?
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Lord Sward
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Leaseback was under Phoenix at around the same time LDV did something similar. Both firms also hived-off the very profitable parts divisions.
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Seamaster
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After Brexit the HHR will be back in production.
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Spastic
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seamaster wrote:
After Brexit the HHR will be back in production.


Just rejoice at that news.
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Ottertronic
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He means the Horse Hauled Runabout.

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Giles
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Sward wrote:
The Leaseback was under Phoenix at around the same time LDV did something similar. Both firms also hived-off the very profitable parts divisions.


In which case, if Honda had outbid Towerz Tenner they would own the car plant formerly known as the largest in Europe.

Puts a different spin on things. The decrepit yet historically important north and south works could be sold off for shops and car parks. New west works and CAB 1 & 2 were fairly useable and modern.
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the_new_tofer
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seamaster wrote:
After Brexit the HHR will be back in production.


In the soon to be empty Honda factory at Swindon?
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